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Amanda Kerschner's avatar

In my younger days, I will admit I thought everyone had the tenacity to stand up for what they believe in. Growing up in a conservative, Christian household taught me to speak up when you see bad people doing bad things i.e. reading Harry Potter, believing in evolution, or swearing. Now that I am a tad bit older, I relate much more to your side of the matter. "Quick to listen, slow to speak" I think is the general principle I would argue for, but definitely not die on a hill for. I think it is the privilege of young people to have the tenacity to care about a subject deeply. Age brings a level of disillusionment with the world. Perhaps we have just seen too many people we viewed as heroes collapse under their own hubris.

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Nebu Pookins's avatar

I appreciate the core argument you're presenting here, but I want to add some nuance to a throwaway aside that you made.

> This is part of the reason why the latest effective altruist demand that you spend your time saving the lives of all the shrimp, mosquitoes, and archaea that you possibly can because that will maximize something valuable is comically unreasonable.

We all live in different social bubbles, and so we will have different experiences with our interactions with different groups. I'm incorporating the (implied) anecdote you've provided into my beliefs, and I'm offering an anecdote from my experience for you to incorporate into yours.

In my experience, effective altruist don't "demand" that you spend your time saving the lives of shrimps etc. For one thing, these people tend to value consequentialist reasoning and they surely realize that using the language/tone associated with "demand" would ultimately hurt their cause.

Instead, what I tend to observe is that they think through various premises seriously, including the possibility that reducing harm to shrimps is something that has a very low cost to high benefit ratio, i.e. that it's potentially an "effective" form of "altruism". They will then write up and present their arguments for why they think this might be the case, and they invite dissenting views, because they value having "true beliefs".

Furthermore, in my observations, they don't try to drag disinterested lay people into debating these points with them, because again, this would needlessly alienate and annoy most people without providing a corresponding benefit and thus be counterproductive to their goal of doing altruism effectively.

What I *do* sometimes observes is that the EA will publish these articles and arguments (on substack and elsewhere) to debate among themselves, perhaps making a claim like "I've done some calculations regarding where we humans seem to be causing the most needless harm, and I think shrimp welfare might be an area worth looking into" and then someone-who-doesn't-identify-as-an-EA might interpret that as "EA people are saying that we are bad people unless we sacrifice everything in our lives and spend every waking moment protecting shrimp" and then via the game of broken telephone, this eventually gets interpreted as "EA demand that we give up our careers and all forms of leisure and sacrifice our loved ones in order to promote shrimp happiness" or something along those lines.

I guess I'm claiming that that last thing is a caricature and "non-central" example of what EAs believe. Perhaps there exists people who read that caricature, and actually become persuaded by it, and thus truly believe it (and perhaps also self-identify as EA), but again, I claim that such people are non-central examples of EA.

I'll also mention that I don't personally put any effort towards improving shrimp welfare, but I support people's freedom (whether they identify as EA or not) to think about and debate the issue of shrimp welfare, and if they do come up with proposals that sound effective to me (e.g. "We have a detailed and adversarially-vetted proposal that will make shrimp slaughtering more humane at only an increase cost of 2 cents per pound of shrimp"), then I'd be willing to sign the petition or whatever. That doesn't sound comically unreasonable to me.

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